Navigating Boundaries and Building Trust

In this episode, we'll dive deep into the world of boundaries and discover how they can revolutionize the way we relate to ourselves and others. With Heather's expertise and practical advice, we'll explore how setting clear boundaries can lead to more fulfilling relationships, improved self-esteem, and enhanced personal growth.

Drawing from her own experiences and research, Heather Claus will share actionable strategies and valuable insights on how to identify and address boundary violations, navigate difficult conversations, and ultimately reclaim our power. Get ready to learn how establishing and enforcing healthy boundaries can be a catalyst for transformation and lead us toward a life of authenticity, respect, and self-empowerment.

If you've ever struggled with saying no, being taken advantage of, or feeling overwhelmed in your relationships, this episode is a must-listen. Whether you're a seasoned boundary-setter or just starting to explore this concept, Heather's wisdom will inspire and equip you to build the meaningful connections you deserve.

More from Heather:
Website: https://my.curiouser.life/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/heatherclaus
YouTube:

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Transcript

Dr. Stephanie

You are listening to the Evolve Your Intimacy podcast with Dr. Stephanie, where it is my goal to educate, enlighten, and evolve your intimacy. You can find me at evolveyourintimacy. com to learn more about counseling, self study courses, sex, and the retreats that we have to offer. This show contains discussions about relationships.

Intimacy and sex and is meant for those who are 18 years and older Now, sit back, relax, listen up and get ready to evolve your intimacy.  Do you have crap tastic boundaries? Do you feel like no matter what you do, people always walk all over you and you just can't get ahead because you were never taught these boundaries?

Well, today we're going to be talking to somebody.  that has written a book about how to really work on those boundaries and how to solidify them and how to use them to your advantage. But first let's hear from our sponsors.  Are you interested in learning more about the topics that we discuss on the show?

Head over to ASN Lifestyle Magazine where you can read all the articles that I publish about relationships, intimacy, and sex. When it comes to the lifestyle in the adult industry magazines. Look no further than ASN lifestyle magazine. They are the natural go to for everything lifestyle and adult content.

Get your free digital issue today at  asnlifestylemagazine. com. And if you have any questions, don't ever hesitate to ask Stephanie.  You are listening to the evolve your intimacy podcast, and I'm Dr. Stephanie. Now let's get back to the show. Today on the evolve your intimacy podcast, we are going to be talking to A very interesting young lady, I'm just going to read her bio here.

Heather has lived an atypical life. She's hitchhiked across the country, traveled and worked in a carnival for a season, roamed New York City with street people, explored and taught alternative lifestyles and so much more. All of her experiences thus far have led her to the belief that boundaries are the key to not only saving ourselves, but our relationships.

She's a big fan of amazing people who enjoy love, sex, romance, and happy and functional lives, whatever that might look like from human to human. Which is why she's thrilled to share her experiences and knowledge of boundaries with all of us today. Heather, welcome to this show! 

Heather Claus:

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Stephanie

Let's just kind of talk really quickly about this atypical life that you've had. How did it all just, did your creativity, were you just born wonderlust?

Heather Claus:

 So, yes. And, um, my mother wasn't adopted and she was a creative artist type adopted into a very type A household. So I think that like, she just poured all of her like creativity and frustration with like systems into the, into me  that happened.

Dr. Stephanie

We have you on today because we're talking about. Your new book, Take No Shit, Build Better Relationships Through Discovering, Creating, and Maintaining Healthy Boundaries in Three, Sometimes Five, Simple Steps. Let's talk about this. It came out September 20th. 

Heather Claus:

Yay.  Super excited. The, so the digital copy is out.

Um, I am in process of recording the audio book and getting the final print version done and the print version  It's a big thing. Like, the, the digital book has lots of illustrations. The print version has even more illustrations. And interactivity, which I know sounds strange for a print book. So I'm, I'm super excited.

QR codes all the way. Ha ha ha 

Dr. Stephanie

ha. Yes. I love that. I love that. So, kind of, um, so, you, you have this very eclectic, very free spirit. And  you, um, I was reading about you and you said that you're not a therapist. You don't claim to be a therapist, um, but you're an educator and a coach, and so what kind of got you down this pathway?

What started your journey?  

Heather Claus:

Oh, well, I didn't mean to get here exactly, um, and I think a lot of people can say that, right? Well, I, I was not going that direction.  I got married when I was 23 and I, um, stayed married for about 11 years. I was with My ex husband for 15 years. And, um, during that time, there were some mental health issues on his part and some alcoholism on his part.

And unfortunately, it ended up with a lot of, uh, emotional abuse on his part. It took me longer than it should have to leave, like. Way longer than it should have, and I even went back once. Yeah, so, you know, I took that road. And once I stepped out that final time, uh, I spent about a year just Digging down into,  what did I do?

Not that I was blaming myself, but how did I get there?  Like, how can I not get there ever again? So that's, I spent a year doing that, and then the next year, I went on 127 first dates.  And I started really like during those two years digging into love, sex, and romance and what  makes people do them. Um, I ended up joining the pickup artist community and kind of like watching from the sidelines there, learning about like how they do the things.

As I pursued, you know, various projects in my work life, I, I kind of started some writing and journaling my adventures through relationships, and people kept wanting to ask me questions and talk to me about things. And I realized that the way my brain works, I'm neuro spicy, is different than the way a lot of other people's brains work.

And so when I started looking at, you know, how we're socialized, and I'm like, well that's  That's dumb.  And so, boundaries were kind of like the first, the foundation of everything that I created to make me the me I am now. And so, last year, I, um, I got a genetic test that gave me some bad news. So I ended up going through several surgeries, um, and preparing for those surgeries last year, my birthday, I turned 49 and I took the month off and I said, I want to do a passion project.

And I dickered around for a couple of days. And then I just decided I'm going to write my boundaries book in front of a live audience. So I created like a forum, I started posting the chapters, I invited people to give me feedback, I wrote 83 chapters, and then I stopped and I said, this is too much, then I went back and I made it useful.

Dr. Stephanie

So how did it work out with the live audience? Like, did they, were they interactive? Like, were they giving good feedback? 

Heather Claus

I spent probably a little over a hundred days writing a chapter, part of a chapter, or two chapters depending on the length, um, every weekday. I also recorded it in audio as I was like  Posting it up, like not good audio, you know, with all the flubs and everything like that.

And I'd say, Ooh, hold on for just a second. I got to change that. So that people could read it or listen to it. And I got a lot of feedback and I got a lot of questions. And I did interviews with people about their boundaries, asking them, you know, What challenges they had had so I could make sure and try to, you know, incorporate things like that in the book since my own boundaries journey was, you know, a decade more in the past and, you know, like, so getting all that together and it was really amazing.

I mean, the book has my name on the cover and the name of the person, Heather Shannon, who wrote the foreword, but really it's.  a crowdsourced effort. Like, there's a lot of information in there from, you know, the people around me. 

Dr. Stephanie

So let's talk about what are boundaries.  Let's just jump right in. Yeah.

Heather Claus

Okay. So I define, uh, boundaries as, um, the expression of personal power.  So a lot of people sort of say that boundaries are what I don't want, right? Like, No, no is a boundary. And I agree, uh, no is definitely a boundary, but it's not the only boundary. Um, so boundaries to me are the expression of personal power.

They are  what, they're the delineation between these are the things I don't want or I want less of.  And these are the things I want to prioritize or I want more of, so that we are putting our power and our resources  where it's best utilized for our lives. 

Dr. Stephanie

I often, I often, I Because everybody, you know, being part of the alternative lifestyle and the community, people are like, so, you know, what's the difference between boundaries, agreements, rules, and I always, in my very broad, general thing is a boundary is designed to keep the person mentally, physically, emotionally safe.

Me, my person. An agreement is something that me and my partners agree on. Based off of our boundaries, and we have an agreement, and a rule is to take it or leave it, hard, hard nose. And so, yes, the boundaries keep me, the person,  whole. Is that, is that the same way that you're describing it as well?  

Heather:

I, I would, yeah, yeah, I would definitely agree with that.

Boundaries, to me, um, are only about, Me  they are only about what I will accept what I will not accept how I will react to something Um, and so on agreements. I absolutely i'm with you on that one What I like to say is Ideally, uh, people in relationships are as autonomous as possible. I think it was Esther Perel in Mating in Captivity that said that if we become too enmeshed, that kills the passion, right?

Because we, we can't be passionate about ourselves. There's nothing passionate about, you know, a little,  you know, it's not exciting. We know what's coming. So autonomy. And then I talk about creating relationships. In the sweet spot. So like negotiations, right?  The sweet spot is the Venn diagram. You know, this is the circle of what I want.

This is the circle of what you want, where we overlap. It's the only place for me that a successful relationship should reside. A relationship like life has enough crap that we don't want to do. Right. Laundry dishes, bills. You know, that sort of thing, those are not  part of the relationship,  right? Those are life.

You either do those with a partner  or you do them without a partner, right? Like that's  not part of the relationship. So I like to say that if you have good boundaries and you and your partner practice good boundaries, then you can build your entire relationship in the sweet spot, your relationship.  Is built of things that you absolutely enthusiastically want to do together. 

And the things that we do not want or do not want to do together, we can do with other people.  Right.  And  to me, that is like the most exciting part of a relationship is the idea that we're both  radically individual humans. Who choose, magically choose, somehow to spend  a lot or a little time together doing things that fill us up with joy.

Dr. Stephanie

Ah, I love that. And so, you talk about six types of boundaries. 

Heather

Let's dig in with that. Okay, six types of boundaries. So, emotional boundaries,  intellectual boundaries, Material boundaries, time boundaries, sexual boundaries, and, what have I already said? Emotional, intellectual, physical boundaries.  Somebody says something, right, that makes you Uncomfortable.

Maybe like somebody that you don't know, or somebody at work calls you like babe or muffin  and you kind of nervously laugh it off. That is an emotional boundary, right? That is, that's how you feel, right? You share an idea with someone and a week later at your, you know, local meeting, um, you find out that your boss.

Is presenting your idea as their own  and you think, you know what, so and so has a big mouth. I probably should have been more clear and I probably should have, you know, recorded what I was talking about a little bit more effectively. That's an intellectual boundary. Somebody is taking your idea, um, or.

Somebody is trying to implant an idea upon you, or a belief system, or you're out on a date,  and you're on the dance floor, and you're, you know, having a great time, and suddenly, you know, your date pulls you close and reaches around for a little butt squeeze, and you kind of freeze. And they keep dancing, and then the song ends, and they let go, and everything seems hunky dory with them, but you have just encountered a sexual boundary.

Right? You were not ready for that, you, they didn't have permission for that, and you didn't know what to do. Material boundaries. Stuff, money, things. Loan money to a friend. They don't pay it back. They ask you for another fiver.  You're heading up against those material boundaries, right? Like, what do you do?

How do you maintain Your stuff you know me actually I'm gonna use an example from my life. I Am an early bird.  I like to get to bed between 9 and 10 p. m Even if I don't go to sleep, I just like to be in bed between 9 and 10 p. m  On what I call school nights, you know nights where I have work in the morning usually all the time every once in a while, I'll stay up for like something special but When people try to push me to do something late on one of those nights, they're bumping up against one of my time boundaries.

Time boundaries are, you know, the, the time that you need to, um, make work happen, the time that you need to maintain your life, the time that you need to sleep, and so on and so forth. And then, of course, the time that you prioritize with people you care about.  And then the last one is Physical boundaries, you know, I think a lot of us had a, uh, great deal of experience with physical boundaries during COVID as we were opening up.

Do we shake hands? Do we fist bump? Do we elbow, you know, I'm a hugger. So as we were opening up from, from COVID, you know, I was like, okay, what are we able to do here? And so, you know, I've all, I often say, you know, are you a hugger? And I let them come in.  And, you know, sometimes they'll say, no, fist bump. And I'm like, okay, you know,  so that's a physical boundary, right? Our personal space. 

Dr. Stephanie

Can the boundaries, in your opinion, be positive? 

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Heather:

So, somebody said to me the other day, uh, she said,  I want a relationship where  I have more joy than I have crappy days. That, to me, is a boundary, right? Like, I require,  uh, a relationship that brings me more joy than it brings me crap.  It's not a very good boundary, because it's not very specific. Like, I was, I said to her, I said, So 51% joy versus 49% crap, or you know, I mean, are we looking at like 75%, 25%, 99% versus 100%?

I'm like, and I told her, I said, you know, in my relationship, if we literally have crap. That we're throwing at each other more than once every 100 days or so, I'm going to be concerned. Like that, well, you know, like, arguments,  something at each other, you know, I mean, it's, it's one thing to say, like, there'll be times when, you know, and I'm sure Everybody has had one of those days where you're just like, Honey, I love you.

Today is not the day. That's healthy when the other person looks at you and slowly backs away and starts throwing your, like, favorite snacks at you and, you know, asking you if they can, you know, get you, like, some slippers or hot chocolate or whatever. The, you know, but  when the two of you start doing the cranky yelly thing, Which I understand for some people seems normal, right?

Like they do that regularly. For me in my relationship, if my partner and I yelled at each other more than two or three times a year,  I would start really strongly reconsidering my relationship.  That's too much. Like, yelling at each other is unnecessary if you have healthy boundaries and good communication.

Dr. Stephanie

But we're not taught that. We're not taught that. They don't, they don't teach that in school. 

Heather:

No! That's exactly what I mean. Like, we're not taught that, and that's, heh. That's why I started with Take No Shit, and  that's why the next book that I already have planned and I've started outlining  Um, actions speak louder than words, or do they, how we kill our relationships with too much talking, you know, the idea that we are not taught to advocate for ourselves and set boundaries,  and we are not taught effective modes of communication when it comes to boundaries.

In fact, we're often taught the opposite. People who love us, our parents, have told us, all of us, have heard this at something similar. Um,  don't talk so much, don't show off, um, be nicer, you know, get along with people.  All of those things are like sandpaper to our authentic personalities. And we get whittled down into, like, this nothing with almost no boundaries.

Dr. Stephanie

And when we try to, like, enforce a boundary, we're told that we're being bad, or we're doing it wrong, or that people won't love us, or And then we get into relationships, and as soon as we enforce a boundary and, you know, the person that we're all starry eyed over gets upset with us, we're screwed.  Then, then we start that rejection sensitivity.

Are they rejecting me because I set a boundary and they said no, or all of that fun mental, sometime abuse that happens  and it's not intentional. I don't believe that. Not everybody intentionally, mentally, and a physically, or, excuse me, not physically, emotionally.  Abuse people, but it's just, we're not taught how to have those communication effectively, we're not taught how to set our boundaries, and so when we do set our boundaries and people kind of  That's an abusive technique.

Heather:

Interesting. Um, so I have this like,  remember I wrote 83 chapters and one of those chapters that got put on the cutting room floor, but as part of like videos and discussions and stuff that, you know, I'll be posting like, you know, the lost archives or whatever was about gaslighting manipulation and scunnery of the worst sorts.

And because I feel that. manipulation and gaslighting are very, um, adjacent to boundaries and boundary pushing. And when I started digging into that research, because, you know, I know my thoughts, and then I like ask people their thoughts, and then I go in and I start researching, something that I found really resonated with me.

And that is the idea That except for institutional manipulation. And so that would be things like we are taught to believe that somebody is this way. And so we tell them that they are that way, or we act like they are that way in order to change their behavior. All manipulation is intentional. It is not.

All conscious or malicious, right? So when we start, you know, crying those big crocodile tears, when somebody yells at us,  we know what we're hoping to get out of the situation way back here, right? We're not necessarily intending to manipulate them consciously, but we're intending to get what we want and we're going to do what we have to do.

In order to survive and thrive  and that was something that  really in some ways like flipped a couple of scripts  in my mind, you know, one of the, one of the troubleshooting chapters that I talk about is. It's titled, um, Would You Kick a Puppy? 

Dr. Stephanie

A very great title. 

Heather:

So, here, let's, let's go through this. 

Would you kick a puppy?

Dr. Stephanie

Not intentionally, but I have kicked one. 

Heather:

Well, exactly. So, like, anybody who's had a puppy knows that you're going to accidentally kick it once in a while because it's going to get under your feet. You know, you might even accidentally kick it down the stairs because it gets right there.  You don't intentionally kick puppies.

Right? Why don't you intentionally kick a puppy because it's wrong and you don't want to right because it is wrong You don't want to okay. We are on the right path.  You are definitely my kind of people. So if it's wrong  and Because it's wrong. We don't want to do it. We don't do it. Why then  do we lash out to hurt our partners with mean words We want them somewhere in our skulls to hurt with us.  And when you stop and you think about that,  and you think, Am I really the kind of person who wants to hurt the person I love? Then you either have an epiphany or you're like, yeah.  Yeah, I am. And you can just go on your merry way, right? 

Dr. Stephanie

But there's a lot of people who are like that. Yes, if I'm not happy, I'm going to hurt you and make you miserable as well, because if you're not, if you're not making me happy, Which is a flawed design as well. It's not my place to make you happy. It's my place to live my life, and if my behavior fits into your happiness, great, but it's not my job to make you happy. I'm not responsible for your feelings. And that's a mind blowing thing. 

Heather:

I agree that I am not responsible for someone's feelings. I also believe, and this is for me, Right? This is one of my boundaries. I also believe that it is wrong and mean spirited to want to harm someone I love. And I don't want to.

Like, I will literally bend over backwards, go out of my way to say, Okay, I can't figure out how to say this in a way that probably won't hurt, and I'm really sorry about this. I hope you'll bear with me. I got this to say. Right? And then I'll say it.  Because I don't want to hurt them. Why would we want to hurt somebody that we love?

I mean, like, obviously, we've already talked about why. I just don't see the point. If I, if I love somebody and I want to be with them,  I think hurting them is the antithesis of the right behavior. So that's a boundary for me, is the idea that if somebody  actively works to hurt me in our conversations,  That's uh, you know what?

I have had an amazing time with you. Thank you so much for all the time that we've spent together. Sayonara. But we're taught as a society, and especially as women, we're supposed to accept that because that's how we're supposed to be treated. And that script and that narrative that we've been fed allows, I shouldn't say allows, it puts, I feel like speaking for myself, it puts women in situations where we are easily manipulated because we're supposed to do that, we're supposed to be this way. 

And then when we set boundaries and we stand up for ourselves, now we're bitch. Oh, you're just a bitch. Damned if you do, damned if you don't type thing, but I would much rather be damned if I did because I am tired of people running over me. I think you've 

just, you've just brought up two things. First of all, the thing that popped into my mind is, have you seen Barbie?

Dr. Stephanie

I have not yet. My daughter and I are waiting. We're going to go see it now. Okay. Yeah. So my partner and I went to see it.  And he actually wanted to go back and see it a second time. The monologue from America Ferrera is brilliant and touches exactly on what you just said. The second thing is, you said damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Heather:

This to me  is also  part of the brainwashing. It is the false dichotomy we are, we are presented with. It is, you are either this or this. And the reason that the monologue hits so hard is because it pokes all of those dichotomies and all of the things that we've been taught and all of the ways we've been treated.

There is a better way, though.  Like, I don't have to  be a bitch, I don't have to be nasty to somebody, and I don't have to take their shit. You I can just  compassionately say thank you so much. I think you're a wonderful person in so many ways. We're not a fit,  right? And maintain  that  without  all of that other stuff.

That again, we have been socialized and conditioned that if we don't yell or scream or cry or whatever, we are not In love enough, we are not passionate enough, we don't care enough. And then on the other side, if we don't caretake, if we don't fix them, if we don't help them work through their obvious anger issues, you know, we don't love enough, we don't care enough, whatever.

Like, to me, I care about you enough to not bring all that drama. And it doesn't matter, we could be  presenting ourselves in the most compassionate. The most understanding, empathetic way, and someone can still turn around and be like, Wow, you're just a bitch. Okay, well, you know what? I can't help that.  I presented you with my best, and you read it this way, and if that's your perspective Well, you, you probably need some therapy, but, and that's when I, you know, that's, that's absolutely the truth.

You know, it's one of those things that, um, I tell people, you know, when you're out dating, they're like, Oh, well, how do I know, you know, who's going to honor my boundaries or whatever. And I've, I, I've got this technique. It's start with, no, tell them now disagree with them. All of them, whatever gender that you're engaging with, right, push back,  set boundaries early.

Because one of the things I learned up in the Pickup Artist community back in the 2000 aughts was they test.  They test for malleability. They test for victimhood. And those tests require that you have craptaculous boundaries.  And if you push back, they will either slowly fade away, thank you baby Jesus, or they will get angry and push.

And that's where, you know, that's where a lot of women on social media or dating sites. Somebody will, you know, climb in their DMs or send them a message that makes them feel ick and they won't even respond because they don't want to deal with the, well, you know, F you, you see you next Tuesday.  Right?

Like, I, I, you know, I, for me,  I respond. I'll, I'll, I'll literally write back and say, Has that ever actually really worked for you?  I wish you the best, and I suggest you don't use that line again.  Like, it's just, that's, that's bad. Really bad. 

Dr. Stephanie

Yeah, yeah. I've, uh,  I've, because I get some messages, I get some messages in my inboxes and I don't really respond to a lot of them because there's just so many and it's the equivalent of a dick pic.

I just open it up and there it is. And there's been times where I'll read it, and I'm just like, Really? Really? That's, that's what you want to do? That's how you want to And I respond that way. 

Heather

I'm like, Oh man, you know, that is the most classless,  terrible thing you can say to anybody, especially a female, but just anybody, you know?

And it's just, I'm not trying to shame you, but come on. Elevate our standards a little bit here, buddy. I figure I'm going to say what I say, and if they feel shamed, Then it's because they know,  you know, they know that they shouldn't be saying things like that. You know, they, I, I sometimes post the messages that I get on social media.

I don't, you know, I anonymize them and whatever, but then, you know, some people will come up after me, especially people of the same gender that sent me the message and be like, you know, why are you shaming people publicly? I'm like, first of all, it's anonymized. And if you recognize this. as something shameful, then you also know it's bad, right?

Like, you know that I should never have gotten this message to begin with. And you're blaming me  for getting the message and sharing it versus the person who originally sent it.  Like, that's on you, buddy. I think maybe you're identifying a little too closely with this human. There's also, 

Dr. Stephanie

I'm gonna circle back to something you had kind of hit on a little bit earlier.

You know, boundaries aren't meant to  make us lovable to others. Boundaries are meant to make us lovable to ourselves. And then some people are like, well, if you set these boundaries, you're never going to find anybody. If you do this, you're never going to find a person because you have unrealistic expectations.

Boundaries, they, to me, and I would love to hear your opinion on this, they make you more attractive, more lovable, because you're loving yourself more. What are your thoughts on that?  

Heather

So, interestingly enough,  um, the original title for my book was not Take No Shit. It was Boundaries Are Sexy AF. 

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Now let's get back to the show. 

Heather:

The basic premise from my perspective is that  boundaries  are what give you,  they, they, they're what conserve your personal power and energy,  right?

And keep. undesirable energy out. So you're not wasting your energy on people, events, or things that are unimportant and unworthy. Um, and you have enough time to really focus in on the things that are important to you, the people that are important to you, the activities that are important to you. So boundaries to me are about Creating your most authentic life, your most joyous life, and they, um, provide a shit shield  from, you know, all of the, the crap that people throw at you. 

Let's, I've got a, I've got a list of questions  and every single one of these, every single one of these to me is a boundary issue.  Okay, so, do you, are you able to say, I know why I do what I do and I'm happy with my decisions.  My happiness and well being is not only a priority, but a daily reality.  Do you help others only when you're able  and when it feels good to you? 

Do you trust yourself  and therefore know when to trust others?  Are you compassionate and empathetic towards others while also being assertive and firm when needed?  Are you able to accept feedback and criticism without taking it personally?  Are you deeply and authentically yourself in and out of your relationships? 

And can you say no easily because that means saving your energy for things and people that really matter?  Now,  however many of those, if you could say yes to all of them, you've got pretty good boundaries.  If a lot of people can say yes to almost none of them  and  think about what it would mean  to have a friend  who  knows why they do what they do and takes full responsibility for their actions, even when they screw up,  right?

Who, when you say you have harmed me. doesn't immediately go into defense or attack mode.  Somebody who, when they say yes to spending time with you, you know they mean it, and they're doing it because they love having you in their life.  Right? This is, this is the person that boundaries creates.  Now, yeah, you might be a little wackadoo.

I like Weird Al Yankovic, right? Like, I just, this, I have, I have a, at the gym the other day, they were like, Hey, somebody put on some music, and my partner goes, Nope, not you.  Cause, you know, when you have a mix of, you know, Violent Femmes, and Weird Al, and the Monkees, and Michael Bublé, and, you know, Leapy Lee from the 1960s. 

Maybe you keep that to yourself. Um,  but for the people that are close to me,  it becomes a source of, you know, that kind of joy annoyance. Like, yeah, it's weird driving long distance in a car with her. You never know what's gonna happen. Last time it was Jesus Christ Superstar right before ACDC, you know,  so that authenticity. 

That people are like, you know, keep that to yourself. That becomes a part of what makes you lovable to the people who can love you,  right? If they can't love you, it doesn't matter whether you fake it or not, right? Because they're not going to love you. We want to be loved for who we are, and that's the key. 

Dr. Stephanie

Yeah,  yeah, we do. We do want to be loved for who we are.  And all of our quirkiness and all of our greatness that, that makes us.  So switching gears a little bit, you know, let's, how do boundaries,  um,  I guess  portray or manifest like in the kink world? Or do boundaries, you know, for you,  how are they different? 

Heather:

So kink,  kink, um,  one of the great things about kink, one of the things that kink people really get right. Because, one of, so, something I think is really important for me to sort of say as sort of like a precursor.  Kinky people  are normal people  with a kink. Sometimes with multiple kinks. But  that guy you golf with on Saturday mornings, He might be kinky.

You don't know. They're just, it's, it's funny how crazy people get about going to like their first kink event until they go and then they're like, Oh, everyone's just like me. Yeah. You know, we don't all look like, you know, models and, you know, dominatrices from CSI and so on and so forth. We're just humans, right? 

One of the things that the kink  community, the alternative lifestyle  itself gets.  Right.  In a way that a lot of other communities, or lack thereof, don't do at all, is the idea of negotiating relationships and experiences.  Right. So when going into a relationship with somebody, most people just sort of like wing it. 

Kink, you know, they'll often go in and say, okay, we're going to do this scene this evening, right? Which is a, usually a kinky event between two or more people for a specified period of time, right? It could be a spanking scene. It could be a rope scene. It could be a flogging scene, whatever it is.  and within this boundary of time and space,  these are the things I'm willing to put in  and these things that you mentioned I am going to take out because that will not work for me.

That  is boundaries at work.  This is what I'm willing to do. This is what I'm not willing to do. And I talk about that a bit in the book. I talk about, you know, how, uh, the kink world uses safe words and  how it might be nice to actually put together some safe words. For when you get into, um, you know, those arguments where they don't seem to go anywhere and both of you just keep talking louder and louder over each other, right?

Like a safe word for that to like, stop you. So neither one of you has to go, you know what, you're being an asshole. You know, you just. Throw out the safe word, you both stop, you take some time to go calm down, whatever. Negotiating your relationship. Negotiating your play. Kinky people, when they talk about, you know, sexy times,  talk about, most often, You know, how do you protect yourself?

Have you been tested recently? What do you like? What do you absolutely want to avoid? What words do you like to hear in bed? What words should I avoid? You know, like, these are the types of things that I personally believe should come out of the kinky world and into the everyday world. Because, frankly, I believe that if we're not yet willing to negotiate and talk about the kinds of sex we want to have with the people we want to have them with, we are not ready to have sex. 

Dr. Stephanie

Yes. There's so much that could be, ah, this is gonna, if vanilla,  vanilla people, humans,  Or a tad bit kinky, a little throw in some spice, or you know, use the  communication skills of someone in an alternative style relationship, an ethically non monogamous relationship. I think the world would be such a better place, because we talk, we communicate, um, even like my couples, my, my high conflict couples that I work with, you know, you're talking about a safe word, well we just, we call it a time out.

And. The thing about timeouts is we just say, Hey, you know what? I'm a much, I'm emotionally flooded. My ears aren't working. Cause when you get emotionally flooded, your ears turn off. And so then you call a timeout, Hey, timeout it's, um, it is 1 50 right now. So I'm going to do 10, 20 minutes. And then you come back, the point of a timeout is you come back because if someone has abandonment issues and you say, I'm gonna come back in 10 minutes, and then you don't come back at all, that just plays into the, it builds and it festers.

So, um, it's always very important to give a time, I'm gonna come back at 2 22 and if we're still not ready to talk, we'll, we'll, I'm gonna ask for more time, but at 10 or 2 22, I'm coming back to you. And so that's the kind of healthy boundaries and communications that can be set in relationships that really. Minimize that high conflict. 

Heather:

I absolutely agree. I think I think it's also important that to understand Um for anybody out there like I don't think That kinky people, or non monogamous, ethically non monogamous people, um, are more evolved or anything like that. They get this one thing right, and they often get it right only in regards to scenes or into dynamics, but they don't necessarily have better boundaries than anyone else in anything else.

Like, so, I think that that's really important to say. And  I also believe that because  I have been in and taught in, um, these alternative lifestyles for as long as I have, that when I  write this book and I talk about boundaries, I'm able to come at it from a lot of different perspectives, including the perspective of if you don't want to have sex at all, let's talk about how to speak about those boundaries, right?

Like, so I think that even, you know, even kinky people, and, and I'm sure like you have seen this a lot, like you go online to, you know, a non monogamy. Or let's, let's just say a polyamory group on  Facebook,  right? And you can see that there are a lot of people there who are very busy harming other people, invalidating other people, not using their words nicely or compassionately. 

And these are just the people online talking to strangers, much less, like, in the throes of their relationship.  And  I've actually like said things like, you know, Hey, maybe, you know, we could calm this down. We could be a little nicer to each other. And people will literally defend their right to be shitty to other people on the internet.

Um, which is also one of the reasons that in the emotional boundaries, uh, chapter of my book, I have a section, a part specifically focused on emotions on social media because We need to be able to put boundaries around that as well. 

Dr. Stephanie

Oh man, that is such a very strong statement, yeah. 

Heather:

Okay, I mean, and let's be clear, I'm one of those people who will sometimes like dive in headfirst just to be a part of the online fracas. 

When I'm in the mood and it's a particularly Boneheaded statements, for example, like I actually, I actually started a group on Facebook. I ended up having surgery. So I abandoned it for a little while. I'll go back to it here soon. I started a group on Facebook. Um, that was about correcting the crap relationship advice that people put out on Facebook,  like I would literally screenshot it and then say, no,  please don't do this.  

Dr. Stephanie

Oh, I know. Yeah. Some of the things that, that I see out there, I'm like, oh, and how's that working for you? Not the best, is it? I mean, I am not by any means, um, I am a relationship expert for everybody else's relationship.

For my own, I, you know,  work in progress, um, but I can tell everybody how to have a great, happy relationship. It's just me doing it myself. It's just, you know, I'm a slow learner is what I like to tell everybody, so I'll catch up with myself. 

Heather:

You would think that I would have gotten this the first or even the eighth time around, but no, it took nine. 

Oh, I was going to say, I would say that, um, I,  I, at this point in my life, if you would ask me five years ago, I would have said, I am a hot mess, you know, just really, really struggling to, you know, get this right. And I really, really want to make it work now. Um, we've hit the 10 year mark. And still super in love, still super passionate about each other.

And I feel like  we have unlocked the secret together. Because we both want that same thing, right? Like, neither one of us wants to harm the other. We've all been, we've both been through enough shit in our lives to like, not want to go down that road again. Um, but yeah, there's  It takes a long time and those ingrained habits, the socialization and stuff that we have been, you know, that's been wood burned into our system is hard to leave behind. 

It is. It is. No matter how hard you try, and I, and I offer this as hope to others,  no matter how hard you try, no matter how well you think you're doing, you're going to mess up and that's okay. You just have to own it. And you have to say, you know what? Yeah, I, I did that. That was probably not my best decision or my best representation of myself. Allow me to allow me to make it better, but owning it. Don't try to hide it. I so many. 

Dr. Stephanie

Okay, so I work and  I work with, um, I'm an infidelity recovery specialist and so when I get one infidelity case, they come in fives for me so I can go six or seven months without having an infidelity and then I get one and four more come right back to back.

So I'm in the season of my five, but I and, you know, they. They, they make these same mistakes and, and I tell them, you know, it's, it's okay to make the mistakes, but you have to own up to it and say, I did that. And there's so many times when people that come in and it's that disclosure time and we have the big disclosure D day is what we call it and they have to share everything.

They give these little half truths because they don't want, if they, if they give the full truth. Then that's going to hurt their partner. But what you don't understand is even the little half truths that hurts much worse. And so just being able to own your shit, own it, you did it, let's own it, and we can move forward.

But, um, I think that those are some, some, some boundaries that we're not taught is to own our shit. And so I love that you jumping into that and saying, this is a, this is my platform. This is what I want the world to know. And you've. Just embraced it and I love that. Yeah, and I think it's I think I'll be really clear like when I say I think my partner and I have got this relationship.

Heather:

That's what I mean. I don't mean that we never you know foobar I mean that when we do, we recover, and we engage, and we validate, and we communicate through it, so that it ends up becoming a poof,  not a  boom! 

Dr. Stephanie

Yes, yes, yes. My last, the, the book that I just finished, or just wrote is called The Anti Fight Journal, How to Fight Fair Relationships. That is exactly what we, we just don't fight. We fight fair. But if we schedule these fights, and have them in a constructive, laid out manner. There's no big explosion. It's just little bitty fires that we're putting out and it helps so much better. 

So, um, yeah, definitely. I'll have to get you a copy of that.

Heather:

I'll send you a copy of my book. We'll do an exchangey. Um, easiest way to find me. My. curiouser. life. That's where you can find a bit about me. It's where you can find, um, links to my book and how to purchase. It's where you can sign up for updates. It's where you can find my Take No Shit workshop. It's where you can find the Take No Shit daily boundaries journaling app.

It's where you can find, uh, one on one coaching with me. Everything is there, including links to social media, if that's what you're looking for as well. 

Dr. Stephanie

Yes, yes, and I'll have that posted in the show notes so you can definitely find her as well. Well, is there any, what are your lasting, your last, your lasting, your last parting  nuggets of knowledge for my listeners?

Heather:

I want to say this is, this is like a really important part of my message.  Craptaculous boundaries. 

They are your responsibility to do better for yourself when you begin to learn better.  So  don't feel bad that you've had crappy boundaries all this time. Um, feel good that you're now recognizing them and you can do something about it.  David Earle, I include this quote in my book, the more severe the dysfunction you experience growing up, the more difficult boundaries are for you. 

And I think that that is, like, every time I say it, like, I get goosebumps.  That's important. And dysfunction doesn't have to look like abuse.  It can just be dysfunction. It can be just, you know, I grew up in the middle of a shit show. Or, you know, my mother was a child when she had me. Or, you know, like, anything. And  it's not our fault that we're socialized in a way that harms us.  And we can all do better.  

Dr. Stephanie

Ah, that is beautiful. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for spending your afternoon with me. This has been so much fun.  

Heather:

I love this. This has been great.  

Dr. Stephanie

Yes, yes, yes. So, um, again, check out my friend Heather here.

You can find all of her information in the show notes, um, and definitely if you want to work with her, we will get you connected. So, um, Yeah. Well, I, I think this is just, let's just call this a wrap. This is a great damn show. 

Heather

Let's do it. 

Dr. Stephanie

Absolutely. All right. Well, I will talk to you soon. Thank you.  

Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to listen to my show. I am Dr. Stephanie with evolve your intimacy and remember you are not in this alone and we are. Definitely here to help. You can learn more about all the amazing things that we do at evolveyourintimacy. com. And if you subscribe to our newsletter, you'll receive free resources monthly to help you evolve your intimacy. Thank you again, and have a great night.